traces of the white rose

THE PODCAST

Munich, 1942. War rages across Europe. After nearly a decade of Nazi rule, Hitler is at the height of his power. Any form of opposition is unimaginably dangerous. Anyone who dares to oppose the regime risks imprisonment, deportation, and even death. To stand up and speak out would take incredible strength and courage. There were some willing to take that risk.

Brought to you by SANSARA and the White Rose Project, Traces of the White Rose is a podcast series telling the story of the White Rose resistance: five students and a professor who stood up to Nazism and paid with their lives. Through newly-translated letters, diaries and resistance pamphlets, hosts Tom Herring and Dr Alexandra Lloyd trace the story of the White Rose resisters in their own words, alongside powerful and moving choral music by English and German composers from SANSARA’s acclaimed album Traces.

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Created & presented by Tom Herring & Dr Alexandra Lloyd
Produced by Tom Herring, Robin Davis, Maddy Morris
Edited & mixed by Tom Herring & Ben Tomlin
Translations by members of the White Rose Project at the University of Oxford
Music from SANSARA’s album Traces, available on all streaming platforms.
Distributed by University of Oxford Podcasts

Full transcripts of each episode are available below.

hosts

TOM HERRING

DR ALEXANDRA LLOYD

ACTORS

GINA JAMIESON

JAMES BRADWELL

SEBASTIAN HUMPHREYS

ELLIOT LIBURD

SAM HILL

support

The series was made with support from the University of Oxford’s Public Engagement with Research Seed Fund, The Oxford Research Centre in the Humanities, the Higher Education and Innovation Fund, and the Genesis Foundation Kickstart Fund.

Thanks are due to the following for kind permission to reproduce quotations in translation:

Lukas Verlag from C. Moll (ed.), Alexander Schmorell, Christoph Probst: Gesammelte Briefe (Lukas, 2011);
Wolfgang Huber and Utz Verlag from W. Huber (ed.), Die Weiße Rose: Kurt Hubers letzte Tage (Utz, 2018);
Fischer Verlag from Thomas Hartnagel (ed.): Damit wir uns nicht verlieren: Briefwechsel 1937-1943, pp. 395-396, 434, 455-56, 457. © S. Fischer Verlag GmbH, Frankfurt am Main, 2006. All rights reserved by S. Fischer Verlag GmbH (978-3-596-17939-8);
Bodleian Library Publishing from Alexandra Lloyd, Defying Hitler: The White Rose Pamphlets (Bodleian Library Publishing, 2022). English translations are by student and academic members of the White Rose Project at the University of Oxford, © Taylor Institution 2019, Bodleian Library Publishing 2022, University of Oxford 2023, and Alexandra Lloyd 2023.
For more information, visit the White Rose Project website.

episode transcripts

Please find full transcripts of the podcast episodes below.

Transcripts are made available for accessibility purposes only and should not be reproduced without permission.

Introduction

Episode Description

In this episode of Traces of the White Rose, Tom Herring (Artistic Director, SANSARA) and Dr Alexandra Lloyd (Fellow by Special Election in German, St Edmund Hall, Oxford) introduce the history of the White Rose resistance: five students and a professor who stood up to Nazism and paid with their lives, and set out what to expect from the series.

Music

Extracts from:
Johannes Brahms Warum ist das Licht gegeben?
Peter Cornelius Requiem
Clara Schumann Abendfeier in Venedig

Episode Transcript

Traces of the White Rose

SOPHIE/HANS
There is no punishment on this earth that would do justice to the crimes of Hitler and his inner circle. But out of love for the coming generations, an example must be set […] so that no one will ever feel even the slightest inclination to commit such acts again…

TOM
Today - we live with the traces of those who dreamed of a brighter future…in times of upheaval and conflict, we search for traces of meaning to hold onto, and stories of courage and resilience to help guide us forward.

In this podcast, we’re going to share a story that speaks powerfully to us today - the story of the White Rose resistance: at its heart, five students and a professor who stood up to Nazism, and paid with their lives.

Through newly-translated letters, diary entries and resistance pamphlets, we’ll hear traces of their story in their own words…traces that live on to this day.

I’m Tom Herring and I’m the Artistic Director of SANSARA - a professional choir based in London…

ALEX
and I’m Dr Alexandra Lloyd, I’m a lecturer in German Studies at the University of Oxford, Director of the White Rose Project, and the author of Defying Hitler, a new book on the White Rose…

TOM
and this podcast is the culmination of our work together, telling the story of the White Rose with new English translations by their present-day student counterparts, led by Alex…

ALEX
and alongside the texts, we’ve got a selection of beautiful and powerful choral music which Tom recorded with SANSARA for their album Traces.

ALEX
The White Rose was a movement that involved a wide network of young resisters, but at its core there were five students and a professor. They were all based in the southern German city of Munich in the early 1940s after the outbreak of the Second World War…

They were: Sophie Scholl, Hans Scholl, Christoph Probst, Alexander Schmorell, Willi Graf, Professor Kurt Huber

Between them, they wrote and distributed a series of resistance pamphlets, calling on their fellow Germans to mount passive resistance against the Nazi regime.

PAMPHLET
Is it not so that in the present day, every honourable German is ashamed of their government? And who among us can foresee the extent of the infamy that will be on us, and on our children, when the veil is one day lifted from our eyes and the most horrific crimes, crimes beyond all measure, come to light?

Wherever you may be, mount passive resistance.

ALEX
For me, one of the best ways to trace the story of the White Rose, is to listen to their own words. You’re going to hear them in English translations produced by student members of the White Rose Project at the University of Oxford in the UK.

TOM
As well as excerpts from their resistance pamphlets, we’re going to share insights into their private lives through previously untranslated letters and diary entries which reveal the human reality behind their political activism and their stoic defiance of Hitler’s power…

SOPHIE
There are times when I dread the war and I’m on the brink of losing all hope. I don’t like to think about it, but soon there won’t be anything but politics, and as long as politics is this confused and evil, turning away from it would be cowardly.

ALEX
These texts are the traces of people who lived and risked their lives for freedom.

TOM
The music you’re going to hear is mainly by English and German composers, from Heinrich Schütz - (writing) in the 17th Century - through to new pieces by Cecilia McDowall, Philip Moore and Piers Connor Kennedy.

ALEX
We know that the members of the White Rose were all highly creative and musical people - they sang in choirs, played instruments and went to concerts together…

TOM
Professor Kurt Huber was also a musicologist and folk song collector…

ALEX
So, one of the key questions with the White Rose is - why them? Why was it that they could see so clearly what others could not? Why did they act when others did not?

One of the things I’ve explored in my research is how music, art, and culture might have helped them to imagine a world beyond the regime in which they were living; how it might have led them to take political action.

In early 1942, Sophie Scholl wrote:

SOPHIE
Music softens the heart; it orders its confusion, relaxes its tension, and creates the conditions for the work of the spirit in the soul which had previously knocked in vain at its tightly sealed doors. Yes, quietly and peacefully music opens the doors of the soul…

TOM
And it’s this idea - music creating the conditions for the work of the spirit - which links the texts of the White Rose to the choral music we’re going to hear in this series. The music represents their cultural imagination… it embodies their connections to each other - multiple voices working together to express their profound sense of responsibility to speak up and be heard.

ALEX
The White Rose resisters were in many ways regular people: they had fun with friends, they found jobs, studied at university, they fell in love, they dealt with the day-to-day difficulties life threw at them. But their courage was really remarkable - they defied the Nazi regime and called out injustice and persecution. They are equally admired by academic scholars for the same reason.

Here is Jud Newborn - historian and co-author of the book ‘Sophie Scholl and the White Rose describing…

JUD NEWBORN
It's absolutely extraordinary that these young people, this handful of young people and Professor Huber – at a time that was the darkest and the most dangerous in German history and in any oppressive regime, and isolated – would have nonetheless found the courage to look at what the regime was about.

And Rebecca Donner - author and expert on the resistance in Germany...

REBECCA DONNER
I think the White Rose demonstrates the power of youth to fight the establishment to fight for justice. They had integrity, they stood up for what they believed in, even when they knew the tremendous risks that face them in doing so. They demonstrated tremendous courage.

ALEX
We'll hear more from academics and experts on the White Rose, including Jud Newborn and Rebecca Donner whom you just heard, in a later episode.

TOM
We’ve split the podcast into three main parts: in Part 1, we’re going to hear some of the first resistance pamphlets to get a sense of the huge risks the White Rose were taking by speaking out against the Nazi regime…

ALEX
We’ll also hear a poignant series of letters and diary entries which shed light on the lives of our protagonists in the early years of the war.

TOM
Part 2 will take us deeper into the political writings of the White Rose and the moment when everything changed…

ALEX
And in Part 3 we’ll hear some deeply moving last letters to their loved ones.

TOM
We’ve also made a fifth episode where we’ll discuss the legacy of the White Rose and hear more from Alex’s academic colleagues who have also studied and written about this remarkable group of resistors.

ALEX
Join us in the next episode, as we take you further into the world of the White Rose - a story of defiance, courage and love.

END OF EPISODE

part one: out of reach

Episode Description

In this episode of Traces of the White Rose, Tom Herring (Artistic Director, SANSARA) and Dr Alexandra Lloyd (Fellow by Special Election in German, St Edmund Hall, Oxford) take us into the world of the White Rose resistance. We’ll find out who they were, how they were connected, and begin to unpack the question of what led them to resist and ultimately risk everything.

Music

Extracts from:
Johannes Brahms Warum ist das Licht gegeben?
Paul Ben-Haim Psalm 126
Heinrich Schütz Selig sind die Toten
Philip Moore Three Prayers of Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Max Reger Nachtlied

Episode Transcript

Traces of the White Rose, Part One: Out of reach

SOPHIE
My dear Fritz!

I’ve got a feeling that a letter from you will come tomorrow; I hope I’m not mistaken. [...] There are times when I dread the war and I’m on the brink of losing all hope. I don’t like to think about it, but soon there won’t be anything but politics, and as long as politics is this confused and evil, turning away from it would be cowardly.

Through newly-translated letters, diary entries and resistance pamphlets, we’ll hear traces of their story in their own words…traces that live on to this day.

I’m Tom Herring…

ALEX
and I’m Dr Alex Lloyd…

TOM
and you’re listening to Traces of the White Rose, a podcast series telling the story of the White Rose resistance in their own words with music by my choir SANSARA…

ALEX
and new translations by students at the University of Oxford. If you haven’t listened to our introductory episode, then we encourage you to pause this episode here and listen to that first as it sets out a bit of useful context about the White Rose and what to expect from this series.

TOM
In this episode, we’ll hear from the core members of the White Rose in new translations of their letters, diaries and resistance pamphlets, recorded in English for the first time. We’ll find out who they were, how they were connected, and begin to unpack the question of what led them to resist and ultimately risk everything. But first, over to Alex for some historical context…

ALEX
In 1933, Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of Germany and the Nazis seized power. They swiftly took control of all areas of German society. Anyone who dared to oppose the regime, or even to criticise it, risked imprisonment, deportation to concentration camps, and the death sentence. Any form of opposition was unimaginably dangerous, not only for those who mounted resistance, but for their friends and families too. To stand up and speak out took incredible courage and strength.

In the south of Germany, a young girl called Sophie Scholl was growing up with her brothers Hans and Werner and sisters Inge and Elisabeth. When the Second World War broke out in 1939, Sophie was 18 years old and still at school. In May 1942, shortly before her 21st birthday, Sophie began her studies at the Ludwig Maximilian University in Munich. Her older brother Hans was already there studying medicine. The day she arrived he met her at the station and that evening they celebrated her birthday together with some of his friends, including two other medical students, Christoph Probst and Alexander Schmorell. Later, she would also meet Willi Graf, another medic and one of her brother’s close circle of friends.

Sophie had only been in Munich for a few weeks when something remarkable happened. Pamphlets began appearing, resistance pamphlets by a group calling themselves ‘The White Rose’. The pamphlets urged people to open their eyes and to confront the truths of the state in which they were living.

SOPHIE/CHRISTOPH
From the first pamphlet of the White Rose:

Is it not so that in the present day, every honourable German is ashamed of their government? And who among us can foresee the extent of the infamy that will be on us, and on our children, when the veil is one day lifted from our eyes and the most horrific crimes, crimes beyond all measure, come to light?

Wherever you may be, mount passive resistance – RESISTANCE …

Remember that every people deserves the government it is prepared to tolerate.

ALEX
When these words first rang out - after nearly a decade of Nazi rule - they were outrageous, shocking, and seriously dangerous. Not only were they calling on people to resist the regime, but they also attacked Germany’s leader, the Führer Adolf Hitler.

SOPHIE/HANS
From the second pamphlet of the White Rose:

Even in its earliest embryonic form, [National Socialism] was dependent on deceiving the German people; even then, it was rotten to the very core and could only save itself through ceaseless deception.

Even Hitler himself writes in an early edition of ‘his’ book (a book which, despite having been written in the most appalling German that I have ever read, has been elevated to biblical status by this nation of poets and philosophers): ‘You would not believe the extent to which you must deceive a people in order to govern it.’ …

Now, we are approaching the end. Now, everything depends on finding one another again, on one person enlightening the next, always reflecting and never resting until every last person is convinced of the dire necessity of fighting against this system…

An end with terror is still better than terror without end.

ALEX
Sophie Scholl would say in their defence during the first White Rose trial that “somebody, after all, had to make a start”. That was precisely what her brother Hans and his good friend Alexander had done in June 1942. They had come to see that there was an urgent need for someone to make a stand, to denounce Nazism, and to open people’s eyes to the injustices that were going on around them.

Hans, Christoph, Alexander, and Willi were all conscripted medical students. This meant they could study at university during term time, but they could be deployed as medics during the university holidays. Eight short weeks after Sophie began her studies, she had to say goodbye to Hans, Alexander and Willi at the Ostbahnhof station in Munich.

By 1942, Nazi Germany was at war with Soviet Russia, and that summer the students were sent to the Eastern Front for a three-month tour of duty. Willi recorded his impressions of life at the Front in his diary. He worried about his parents at home in Germany during the Allied bombing raids.

WILLI
8th August 1942

In the morning it’s already raining. The ground is wet and covered in mud. Outside you’re constantly standing in filth. The rain doesn’t let up, and the sky too is overcast. There’s no comfort here.

News arrives that Saarbrücken has been bombed. It’s said to be very bad. I’m worried about my parents; I can’t get a message from them.

In the evening: on duty, night watch, instructions and checks. I think of home.

ALEX
Hans kept a diary, too, as well as writing several letters to his loved ones back at home. He talked about his daily life at the Front and of shared experiences with friends. His diary contains moments of profound reflection: on literature, faith, and the meaning of life and death.

HANS
7th August 1942

I’m weary from having nothing to do. And the bunker is shaking and creaking since the Russians are loading one bomb after another onto the tracks. I’m superfluous here. I’m a lonely pedestrian in the midst of total chaos. The war has cast its spell over me only between firing and impact.

ALEX
In August 1942, Hans and Sophie’s father, Robert Scholl, was sentenced to four months’ imprisonment for publicly criticising Hitler and the Nazi regime. Over three thousand miles away in Russia, Hans was thinking about his father and wrote about him in his diary.

HANS
28th August 1942

My father is in prison. At this moment he’s certain to be thinking of me. I’m sitting on a wooden crate. A candle is burning, flickering, strange shapes form and flow down its side, wax figures formed at random or by fate. The candle will get smaller and smaller and finally go out.

What is death? Why do people fear it so? Why do your fingers tremble when you touch a corpse? [Ach] And oh, you think with a certain relish of a mother’s tears, or the heart of a lover that in pain desires to beat no longer. [Ach] And oh a thought creeps into your mind, a thought you just play with secretly, that you are still alive, that your heart is still beating… [...] My father is in prison. Outside: bombs are going off.

I don’t have any music with me. Day and night I hear nothing but the groans of men in anguish, and when I’m dreaming, I hear the sighs of those who have been forsaken, and when I think, my thoughts end in agony.

ALEX
Hans wrote to one of his university professors, Kurt Huber, who taught musicology, philosophy, and psychology at the Ludwig Maximilian University in Munich. His lectures were popular with students, including the members of the White Rose.

HANS
17th August 1942, Russia

Dear Professor!

After a long and varied journey we arrived two weeks ago in a little town, half shot to pieces, east of Vyazma. Here we spend our days doing nothing. I am in the same company as three good friends whom you know.

Greetings from,

Hans Scholl, Alexander Schmorell, Willi Graf

ALEX
It was not only Sophie’s brother and their friends who were on the Eastern Front that summer. Fritz Hartnagel, a young soldier, was also stationed in Russia. Sophie and Fritz had met a few years earlier. They wrote to each other often, and met when they could.

In the summer of 1942, Fritz was among the 250, 000 German troops advancing on the city of Stalingrad. This bloody battle would go on for six long months. Fritz wrote to Sophie as he imagined life after the war.

FRITZ
23rd August, 1942, near the river Don, Russia

My dear Sophie!

I’m just writing to say good night. Today was a proper Sunday, not only because we had real coffee and even pudding at lunchtime, but because it was a really quiet day when I didn’t have much work and, for once, everything went as it should, so I didn't have any bother. ...

I am now considering ever more seriously whether I should take over my father's business, if I can get out of the military after the war, that is. ... Could you ever see me as a ‘respectable businessman’? …

I am waiting to hear from you, it’s already been four weeks since your last letter, I send my love as always. You are firmly in my heart and safe in my prayers.

Your Fritz.

ALEX
Sophie started back at university after the summer break in the Autumn of 1942. She wrote to Fritz as the new term began:

SOPHIE
7th November 1942, Ulm

My dear Fritz,

I haven’t had word from you in so long that my mind is racing with all kinds of possibilities. Maybe you’ve finally been transferred, but I can hardly assume that based on your previous letters. But if you are well, I will gladly wait. Perhaps some post has just gone astray.

I would like to wander through the forest with you again, or anywhere for that matter; but that still feels quite far off, even if it is not completely out of reach.

For the time being, I’ll have to make do with sending you a letter – from your Sophie.

ALEX
A month later, Fritz wrote to Sophie:

FRITZ
I always try to rise above all the horror, all the madness, to reach a place of safety, whatever may happen to me.

Yesterday when the Russians were firing at us and the sounds of war raged in the air, suddenly a little bird sat on the edge of my foxhole and twittered happily, as though it didn’t have a care in the world. I don’t know what led me in that moment to believe with absolute certainty that it could only be a greeting from you. And then I felt so safe in my pit, as though nothing in this world could harm me.

Perhaps this letter will reach you by Christmas if I get the chance to send it along with a transport plane. It is all that I can send you for Christmas – a loving and tender greeting from your Fritz.

My fondest wishes to all the loved ones at home.

ALEX
Sophie spent that Christmas with her family. She wrote to Fritz just before New Year’s Eve:

SOPHIE
30th December 1942, Ulm

Another quiet evening at home. I found some beautiful old music on the radio, the kind of music that soothes the senses, restoring order to the bewildered heart with a guiding hand. This beauty can never be a bad thing; it breathes the life of a pure mind, and a clear one at that - sometimes mathematically clear.

ALEX
In January 1943, Fritz was airlifted out of Stalingrad and taken to a military hospital in Lemberg, now Lviv, Ukraine.

On the 16th of February, Sophie wrote to him about a recent trip she had made to visit her parents:

SOPHIE
16th February 1943, Munich

My dear Fritz!

Just another quick ‘hello’ before I dash back off to my lectures. I think I already mentioned in one of my other letters that I went home for ten days to help out there. These kinds of days always do me some good, though I don’t get much time to myself, if only because Father is always so happy to have me home and is surprised when I have to leave again, and because Mother is always fretting over a thousand little things. This love, so freely given, is to me something wonderful. I feel it is one of the most beautiful things with which I have been blessed.

The 150 kilometres between Ulm and Munich change me so quickly that even I am astonished by it. I go from being a naive, exuberant child to a woman who must fend for herself. But this time alone does me good, even if it doesn’t always sit so well with me because I have been so spoiled with company. But I only truly feel secure in places where I discern a selfless kind of love. And that kind of thing is relatively rare.

ALEX
Fritz, who had not received any post from Sophie for some time, wrote to her the following day:

FRITZ

17th February 1943, from the military hospital in Lemberg

My dear Sophie!

Sometimes - I do have a lot of time for reflection – I grow uneasy when I think that three months have passed since I last heard from you and from home. Could something terrible have happened in this long stretch of time? But I’ll wait and hope until the first letter arrives. ...

Write to me soon, dear Sofie. …

Tom
Back in Munich, just hours after Fritz wrote this letter, his worst fears were being realised… he would never hear from Sophie again…

ALEX
On Thursday the 18th of February 1943, Sophie and her brother Hans were caught distributing copies of the White Rose resistance pamphlets at their university. They were arrested by the Nazi secret police, the Gestapo.

That evening Willi Graf was arrested as well. Two days later, Christoph Probst was arrested and by the following Saturday, Alexander Schmorell and Professor Kurt Huber were also in custody.

TOM
After nearly a decade of Nazi rule, after three years of war, and after nine months of resistance activities, it took just over a week for the core members of the White Rose to be stopped in their tracks.

In the next episode, we go back and hear more of the resistance pamphlets and find out what happened to the members of the White Rose after their sudden arrests…

END OF EPISODE

part TWO: YOUR bad conscience

Episode Description

In this episode of Traces of the White Rose, Tom Herring (Artistic Director, SANSARA) and Dr Alexandra Lloyd (Fellow by Special Election in German, St Edmund Hall, Oxford) dive deeper into the resistance writings of the White Rose, and find out what happened to Sophie and Hans Scholl following their arrest by the Gestapo. This episode features choral music by Max Reger, Rudolf Mauersberger, Peter Cornelius and Cecilia McDowall.

Music

Extracts from:
Johannes Brahms Warum ist das Licht gegeben?
Max Reger Nachtlied
Mauersberger Herr, lehre doch mich
Peter Cornelius Requiem
Cecilia McDowall Standing as I do before God (soloist: Hilary Cronin)

Episode Transcript

Traces of the White Rose, Part Two: Your bad conscience

SOPHIE
The constant uncertainty that we live in nowadays prevents us from making nice plans for the next day and casts a shadow over all the days yet to come; it weighs me down night and day and doesn’t give me a minute’s rest. When will the time finally come when we won’t have to focus all our strength and all our attention on things that aren’t worth lifting a finger for?

Every word is scrutinised before it’s even spoken, in case there is even a hint of ambiguity about it. Our trust in other people has to give way to mistrust and caution.

Through newly-translated letters, diary entries and resistance pamphlets, we’ll hear traces of their story in their own words…traces that live on to this day.

I’m Tom Herring…

ALEX
and I’m Dr Alex Lloyd

TOM
and you’re listening to Traces of the White Rose, a podcast series telling the story of the White Rose resistance in their own words, with music by my choir SANSARA.

ALEX
and new translations by students at the University of Oxford…

TOM
At the end of the last episode, we heard a letter Fritz Hartnagel wrote to Sophie Scholl on the 17th of February 1943 - he shared his fear that something terrible could have happened in the long period of time since he’d last heard from her…

FRITZ
My dear Sophie,

ALEX
On 18 February, Sophie and her brother Hans were arrested at the University in Munich where they were caught distributing copies of the White Rose pamphlets…

TOM
In this episode, we’re going to take you back to find out more about the pamphlets produced by the White Rose between June 1942 and February 1943.

ALEX
…and we’ll find out what happened to the members of the White Rose following their arrest by the Gestapo.

SOPHIE
7th November 1942, Ulm

Hans is coming back from Russia tonight. I’m already imagining the days we’ll spend together in Munich in our little flat, days that could well be productive.

But I can’t truly be happy. The constant uncertainty that we live in nowadays prevents us from making nice plans for the next day and casts a shadow over all the days yet to come; it weighs me down night and day and doesn’t give me a minute’s rest. When will the time finally come when we won’t have to focus all our strength and all our attention on things that aren’t worth lifting a finger for? Every word is scrutinised before it’s even spoken, in case there is even a hint of ambiguity about it. Our trust in other people has to give way to mistrust and caution. Oh, how tiring and sometimes disheartening it is.

But no, I won’t let anything take away my courage, these trivial things will not get the better of me, when I know there are other joys that surpass them. When I think of this, my strength returns, and I want to cry out a word of encouragement to everyone else who is oppressed.

ALEX
Sophie wrote this letter to Fritz in November 1942. She hints at the ‘productive’ days she and Hans are to spend together in Munich as the new university term begins. She was surely thinking of the White Rose and the continuation of their pamphlet campaign.

It had begun just a few months earlier, when her brother and his friends had decided to take action and defy the Nazis. Over the course of two weeks between June and July 1942 they wrote, printed, and distributed four resistance pamphlets. These pamphlets - some of which we heard in the previous episode - were highly controversial, radical texts, calling on Germans to wake up and do whatever was in their power to resist the Nazi regime.

SOPHIE/WILLI
From the third pamphlet of the White Rose:

Many, perhaps even the majority, of those reading these pamphlets have no idea how they should mount resistance. They cannot see how it is possible. We aim to show them that each and every one of them is in a position to contribute to the overthrow of this system. …

We do not have a vast range of means at our disposal, we have only one: PASSIVE RESISTANCE.

ALEX
The pamphlets not only demanded that people take action, but also accused those at the heart of the regime of wasting the lives of countless soldiers, sending them to die on the battlefields.

SOPHIE/CHRISTOPH
From the fourth pamphlet of the White Rose:

Who has counted the dead, Hitler or Goebbels? — neither of them, in truth. Thousands fall in Russia every day. It is harvest time, and the Reaper cuts into the ripe crop with broad strokes. Grief settles into the country’s cottages, and no one is there to dry the mothers’ tears. Hitler, however, lies to those whom he has robbed of their most precious possessions, and driven to a meaningless death.

There is no punishment on this earth that would do justice to the crimes of Hitler and his inner circle. But out of love for the coming generations, an example must be set after the end of the war, so that no one will ever feel even the slightest inclination to commit such acts again.

Do not forget the petty villains of this regime; remember their names, so that not a single one goes free!

We will not be silent. We are your bad conscience. The White Rose will never leave you in peace!

TOM
After the first four pamphlets had been produced, the campaign seemed to come to a halt. The White Rose suddenly fell silent.

AL
In July 1942, Hans Scholl, Alexander Schmorell and Willi Graf were sent to the Eastern Front as medics. When they returned to Germany in November 1942, they knew they had to press on with the pamphlet campaign. The Gestapo had already begun to investigate the pamphlets. Surely it was only a matter of time before those responsible were identified.

Hans, Sophie, Willi, and Alexander were all in Munich for the start of the new university term. Christoph was stationed in Innsbruck in Austria, but travelled to Munich when he could to help with the group’s resistance activities.

ALEX
In January 1943, after almost six months’ of silence, the group produced a fifth pamphlet. This time they dropped the name ‘the White Rose’ and instead aligned themselves with all Germans resisting Nazism:

WILLI
An Appeal to all Germans! …

HITLER CANNOT WIN THE WAR; HE CAN ONLY PROLONG IT!

Germans! Do you and your children want to suffer the same fate that befell the Jews? Do you want to be judged by the same measures as those who have corrupted you? Shall we be forever hated and shunned by the whole world? No! So separate yourselves from the subhuman nature of National Socialism! Act — prove that you think differently! A new fight for liberation is at hand. The better part of the people is fighting on our side. Tear off the cloak of indifference that shrouds your heart! Decide — BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!

Freedom of speech, freedom of faith, protection of the individual citizen from the despotism of criminal and violent states: these are the foundations of the new Europe.

Support the resistance movement, distribute the pamphlets!

ALEX
Just days after the fifth pamphlet was printed and distributed, Willi noted in his diary:

WILLI
3rd February, 1943

In Germany news arrives that Stalingrad has been taken by the Russians. It is news of great significance. Everyone thinks so.

ALEX
This was a considerable military loss for Nazi Germany. For the White Rose resisters, it must have looked as though the tables were turning. A sixth pamphlet was then written, this time by Professor Kurt Huber. It called on students to rise up and fight for their freedom.

KURT
Fellow Students!

Our people look on deeply shaken at the defeat of our men at Stalingrad. The ingenious strategy of our Great War corporal has hounded three hundred thousand German men senselessly and irresponsibly to death and ruin.

Turmoil is fermenting among the German people: are we to further entrust the fate of our armies to a dilettante? Are we to sacrifice what is left of our German youth to the basest power-grabbing instincts of a party clique? No more!

The day of reckoning has come, the reckoning of Germany’s youth with the most heinous tyranny that our people has ever endured. In the name of all German youth, we demand from Adolf Hitler’s state the return of our personal freedom, that treasure which Germans hold most dear, and which he has cheated us of in the most wretched of ways. …

ALEX
On the morning of Thursday 18th of February 1943, Sophie and Hans walked the short distance from their flat to the main building of their university. Working as quickly as they could, they laid out piles of the fifth and sixth pamphlets in the corridors and on the balconies of the entrance hall.

KURT
For us there is only one slogan: fight against the party! Get out of the party structures which stifle our political expression! Get out of the lecture halls of the SS and senior leaders and party sycophants! Our goal is true scholarship and real freedom of the mind! There is no threat that can deter us, not even the closure of our universities. It is the duty of each and every one of us to fight for our future, our freedom and honour in a political system conscious of its own moral responsibility.

ALEX
What happened next is the best-known part of the White Rose story: in a moment of reckless spontaneity, Sophie pushed a pile of the pamphlets off a balcony high up in the hall. The sheets of paper floated down to the floor below.

TOM
Had it not been for this act, Sophie and Hans might have succeeded in disappearing into the crowd of students pouring out of the lecture theatres and classrooms…

ALEX
But instead, they were stopped, reported to the Gestapo, and arrested.

When they were caught, Hans had in his pocket a draft of what would have become the seventh White Rose pamphlet. He tried to destroy it, but the Gestapo found it. The draft had been written by Christoph and it sealed his fate.

The evening before Sophie’s arrest had been like any other. She had dinner, and then back in the flat she shared with Hans, she listened to a recording of Franz Schubert’s Trout Quintet on the gramophone. As she did so, she wrote a letter to an old friend:

SOPHIE

17th February 1943, Munich

Dear Lisa! I’ve just been listening to the Trout Quintet on the Gramophone. When I listen to the andantino, I would rather like to be a trout myself. You can’t help rejoicing and laughing, just as it’s impossible to have a dispassionate or sad heart when you see the springtime clouds in the sky or branches in bud, swaying, stirred by a breath of wind. Oh, how I long for spring to come again. In Schubert’s piece, you can really sense and smell the breezes and fragrances and the birds and the whole of creation singing for joy. The recapitulation of the theme in the piano part – like clear, sparkling water, oh it is truly enchanting. Write soon. With love, your Sofie.

ALEX
This is the last letter we have of Sophie’s…

The last traces of her voice survive only in Gestapo interrogation records, in the transcripts of her trial, and in the memories of those who spent time with her in her final days.

TOM
She is full of optimism here, full of hope, dreaming of a Spring she would never see…

Almost a year before this last letter, Sophie described how, for her, ‘music opens the doors of the soul’, creating the conditions needed for the work of the spirit…

In the midst of war, with her future husband on the Eastern Front, living in an oppressive regime, and preparing to undertake a daring act of resistance, she puts on a record and is set free…

ALEX
Five days later, 750 miles away, Fritz wrote to Sophie. He was recovering from an operation after being airlifted out of Stalingrad.

FRITZ
22nd February 1943, from the military hospital in Lemberg

My dear Sophie!

I am very grateful that you have written to me so diligently, although you still don’t seem to have received any post from me. Your letters do me so much good. Today another reached me, and the first thing to greet me were some lilac-red petals that fell into my lap.

And as I hold your letter in my hands, and as warm rays of sunshine stream in through the window, is not spring already here? Or at least a sense that it is on its way and a fervent hope that it will soon be here. …

But for now you must tell me more about where you are, I still don’t know anything about it. For instance, is Hans still with you in Munich? And who else is there?

I spend many hours of the day with you. Take this as a small proof of it.

Affectionately,

Your Fritz.

TOM
Fritz’s letter never reached Sophie. On the same day he wrote to her, the 22nd of February 1943, Sophie, Hans, and Christoph were sentenced to death in a Nazi courthouse. They were executed at Stadelheim Prison just hours later.

Hoping to receive another letter from her soon, Fritz instead got a letter from Sophie’s mother, explaining what had happened.

ALEX
In Part Three, we find out what happened to the other members of the group with selections from their last letters.

END OF EPISODE

part Three: not in vain

Episode Description

In this episode of Traces of the White Rose, Tom Herring (Artistic Director, SANSARA) and Dr Alexandra Lloyd (St Edmund Hall, University of Oxford & Director of the White Rose Project) explore the final days of the White Rose resistors with poignant excerpts from their last letters, set alongside choral music by Cecilia McDowall, Philip Moore, Ethel Smyth and Piers Connor Kennedy.

Music

Extracts from:
Johannes Brahms Warum ist das Licht gegeben?
Cecilia McDowall Standing as I do before God (soloist: Hilary Cronin)
Philip Moore Three Prayers of Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Ethel Smyth Komm, süsser Tod
Piers Connor Kennedy Blessed are the peacemakers

Episode Transcript

Traces of the White Rose, Part Three: Not in vain

KURT
Dear Clara! Death parts us just at the moment when we are closest. Think of the wonderful hours, of our being with the children, and forget all suffering! We will remain one heart and one soul. Be proud that you are playing your part in the fight for a new Germany. You are heroes just like the women and children who lost their fathers at the Front.

Through newly-translated letters, diary entries and resistance pamphlets, we’ll hear traces of their story in their own words…traces that live on to this day.

I’m Tom Herring…

ALEX
and I’m Dr Alex Lloyd…

TOM
and you’re listening to Traces of the White Rose, a podcast series telling the story of the White Rose resistance in their own words, with music by my choir SANSARA.

ALEX
and new translations by students at the University of Oxford…

At the end of the last episode, we heard a letter Fritz Hartnagel wrote to Sophie Scholl on the 22nd of February 1943. He described how grateful he was that Sophie’s letters had finally reached him, how much comfort and hope they gave him.

FRITZ
Your letters do me so much good. Today another reached me, and the first thing to greet me were some lilac-red petals that fell into my lap. And as I hold your letter in my hands, and as warm rays of sunshine stream in through the window, is not spring already here? Or at least a sense that it is on its way and a fervent hope that it will soon be here…

TOM
This optimism is echoed in a letter Sophie wrote the night before her arrest…

SOPHIE
You can’t help rejoicing and laughing, just as it’s impossible to have a dispassionate or sad heart when you see the springtime clouds in the sky or branches in bud, swaying, stirred by a breath of wind. Oh, how I long for spring to come again.

TOM
It was a spring she would never see. On Monday 22 February 1943, Sophie was tried for treason alongside her brother Hans and their friend and fellow resistor Christoph. Their trial finished at lunchtime.

ALEX
At 4pm they were informed that they had an hour left to live. At 5pm, Sophie was led to the guillotine. Minutes later, her brother Hans was taken too. His last words were ‘Es lebe die Freiheit!’ - ‘Long Live Freedom!’.

Christoph’s life ended that day too. He had been arrested two days earlier as he went to collect a leave permit to allow him to visit his wife and new baby daughter in hospital. Christoph wrote to his wife, Herta, from prison. He signed himself ‘Christel’, the name his friends and family used for him.

CHRISTOPH
22nd February 1943, Munich

My beloved wife!

Thank God you and our dear children are well. When you think of me, you need not be worried. Following an unfortunate series of events, I have ended up at the Gestapo in Munich. But I am not doing badly here at all. I feel quite calm and await the things that are to come. Never have I drawn so much strength from my love for you as I do now. It feels as though I am very close to you. I see you before me, I feel your love in me and my love in you and I am so happy, because I know that this love is indestructible. Even if you cannot understand why I am being held in this cell, then stay calm, stay calm and do not worry. I am being treated well, and I am not finding life in the cells so bad. And the children? I see them in my mind, one after another, so sweet, carefree, and wonderfully innocent. What darling creatures you have borne me, my darling wife. … My love for you often rises beyond measure, I am unendingly grateful to you. I want to live for you and the children.

With a warm embrace,

Your Christel.

ALEX
After Hans and Sophie had been apprehended, it did not take long before the other members of the core group were identified. Having learned of their arrest, Alexander Schmorell embarked on a daring escape attempt, leaving Munich and heading towards Austria.

A reward of 1000 Reichsmarks was offered for his capture. This was a vast sum, amounting to about half the average annual salary at the time. Days later, he was arrested. He was interrogated and stood trial on the 19th of April 1943 alongside other suspected resisters, including Professor Kurt Huber and Willi Graf.

Alexander’s execution took place three months later. He wrote a final letter to his father and stepmother:

ALEXANDER
13th July 1943, Munich

It seems it was not to be any other way, and in accordance with the will of God I am to leave my earthly life today, to enter another, one which will never end and where we will all meet again. May this reunion be your solace and your hope. Sadly, this will be harder for you than for me, because I pass on in the knowledge that I have remained faithful to my deepest convictions, and the truth. All of this allows me to face the imminent hour of my death with a clear conscience. … Think of the millions of young people losing their lives out there on the battlefield – my fate is the same as theirs. …

(With me goes Prof. Huber, who asked me to pass on his warmest greetings to you!)

ALEX
Alexander did not go to his death alone. Another member of the White Rose was scheduled to be executed on the same day: Professor Huber. He had become actively involved in the White Rose from the Winter of 1942. Like Christoph, Huber was a husband and father.

Huber was the last member of the group to be arrested. As he was taken away by the Gestapo, his daughter called after him: ‘Don’t be home late!’.

Huber was interrogated, and then transferred to the prison at Neudeck. He wrote to his wife Clara to let her know how he was faring. His letter is full of practical considerations and love for his children Birgit and Wolfgang, known as Wolfi.

KURT
25th March 1943

Dearest Clara! As of yesterday I am in Neudeck prison and ask you to visit me by yourself as soon as possible. The visiting times are listed above…

Please bring just some old shirts and a night shirt! I’ll give the red shirt back to you together with my laundry, and it would help if you could bring along a suitcase for these, since mine will need to stay here. Then I just need my sock suspenders and shoelaces (one pair).

You can write to me every couple of weeks, and I’ll do the same. For all your dear letters, which always reassure me, and for everything for which you all have scrimped and saved, I thank you from the bottom of my heart! You are all so brave and I am looking forward very much to seeing you.

Little Birgit should keep on making music – that’s the very best antidote to a lot of studying. She is so dear, and Wolfi is such a good little chap too…

Could you bring me volumes one and two of the Leibniz from the red philosophy series? For today, I wish you much love and greetings to everyone! A warm embrace for you and the children from your concerned father.

…And please at some point bring a clothes brush, too!

ALEX
Professor Huber continued to work on his academic research for as long as he could while in prison. He asked Clara to bring him books and papers. He requested a stay of execution to allow him to complete his work, but it was refused. Three months after his arrest, the news came that he was to be executed later that day.

He wrote to his wife, and their two young children.

KURT
13th July 1943

In the middle of my work today, I received the news that I have so long been waiting for.

Dearest, rejoice with me! I may do it for my fatherland, for a just and more beautiful fatherland that will certainly arise out of this war.

Dearest Clara! Your life was a thorny path, but today you are already a saint. Forgive me all the ways in which I have failed you! I love you from the depths of my heart and will be with you and our dear children every day, until you follow after me to the place where no one ever parts again. I place into your devoted and loving hands the fate and education of our dear children. I know that they will think of their father and will give as much joy as they can to their dear mummy.

Dear Clara! Death parts us just at the moment when we are closest. Think of the wonderful hours, of our being with the children, and forget all suffering! We will remain one heart and one soul. Be proud that you are playing your part in the fight for a new Germany. You are heroes just like the women and children who lost their fathers at the Front.

Dearest Birgit, the beginning of your life has been dark and serious, but the future is bright. Yours and mummy’s letters have been an endless source of comfort to me. I know you will continue to be your mother’s strength and stay.Your father will not forget you; he is praying for you all. God has given you rich gifts. Use them. Take delight in music and poetry and remain the good little angel that you have been to us.

Dearest, brave little Wolfi! A whole beautiful life lies open before you. You will be a good little boy and an accomplished man, mother’s protector and pride. And if life is ever difficult, think of your daddy who never stops caring for his little boy.

Dear ones! Do not weep for me – I am happy and at peace!

And when I ask myself: What have I left behind?
Ideas. Only sketches, piles of paper.
Hardly a fair copy among them. Death
Is the fair copy of my life, and that was not in vain.

ALEX
After Alexander and Professor Huber had been executed, only one member of the core group was left alive: the student Willi Graf.

Willi had been arrested on the same day as Hans and Sophie back in february and was tried alongside Alexander and Professor Huber in april.

He was kept alive in solitary confinement; the authorities had hoped to get further information out of him. After all, he had been instrumental in spreading the pamphlets, and he was connected to many other individuals who had helped the White Rose. But he never betrayed his fellow conspirators.

On the 12th of October 1943, nearly eight months after his arrest, Willi was told that his execution would take place that same day. He wrote to his sister Anneliese in a letter smuggled out of the prison by the Catholic chaplain:

WILLI
Anneliese! On this, my final day, I have received your letter, and your words were a great comfort to me. Now you alone must help our parents bear this suffering and seek to be for them what I could not. You know how much you have meant to me, and in this, my final hour, I want to tell you how much I have loved you. Let the conversations we have had in our final weeks together be a help to you and give meaning for your future life. I will be with you, even when I can no longer stand at your side in this life. … For us, death is not the end, but the beginning of our true life, and I shall die trusting in God’s will and provision. …

With heartfelt love,

Your Willi

TOM
These last letters are full of hope, faith, and a strong resolve that they had followed their conscience.

ALEX
Willi told his sister that others should now carry on the work of the White Rose. And indeed they did. Even as Willi was executed, the White Rose continued. They had declared “We will never be silent!”. Their message would live on.

TOM
Thank you for listening to Traces of the White Rose. We’ll be sharing a final discussion episode which will feature some more insights and reflections on the White Rose from some of Alex’s academic colleagues…

ALEX
and we’ll explore some of the traces of the White Rose today, how they are remembered and how their legacy has been used in some fascinating, and sometimes surprising, ways…

END OF EPISODE

legacies

Episode Description

In this final episode, Tom Herring and Dr Alexandra Lloyd explore the enduring legacy of the White Rose, with contributions from students, academics, and authors working on this remarkable resistance group.

Music

Extracts from:
Johannes Brahms Warum ist das Licht gegeben?

Episode Transcript

REBECCA DONNER
I think the White Rose demonstrates the power of youth to fight the establishment, to fight for justice. They had integrity, they stood up for what they believed in. Even when they knew the tremendous risks that faced them in doing so, they demonstrated tremendous courage.

And it must be remembered that Sophie and Hans Scholl and others in the group grew up during this regime. You know, as the sixth leaflet says, ‘we have grown up in a state which ruthlessly gags all freedom of expression. The Hitler Youth, the SA, and the SS have tried to homogenise, radicalise, and anesthetise us in the most fruitful of our formative years.’ So for these young people to stand up to this regime took incredible strength and moral integrity and courage.

TOM
I'm Tom Herring…

ALEX
and I'm Dr Alexandra Lloyd…

TOM
and you're listening to Traces of the White Rose.

ALEX
In this final episode we're going to hear from some of my colleagues and from student members of the White Rose Translation Project. They'll share their perspectives on the White Rose and what this remarkable story means for us today.

TOM
You've already heard Rebecca Donner describing the amazing courage of the members of the White Rose. Here's Stephani Richards-Wilson reflecting on another important characteristic.

STEPHANI RICHARDS-WILSON
I think most people, at least my experience has been, will talk about their courage and they certainly were courageous, you know, doing what they did against overwhelming odds, being in the minority and going up against Hitler and the Nazis. But my answer probably would be their compassion because, you know, evil can be bold and brazen and brash, but to be compassionate and courageous like the White Rose, to be in solidarity with the victims, to see atrocities and to actually do something, to move from being an observer to an upstander - I think compassion can be very powerful.

And I think that's what is one of their most inspiring they did not remain indifferent and that they got involved. It was very difficult when you have, in that time, nothing to gain and everything to lose, including your life. I think their compassion and the ability to align with others, many people, nationalities, faith formations, religious backgrounds that they might not have much in common with except their humanity and I think their compassion connected them to the fellow human beings who were suffering and really needed help. So I would say their compassion followed by their courage.

ALEX
Another key characteristic, which is highlighted in the title of part two of the podcast series, is conscience. Here's former student project member Lydia Ludlow.

LYDIA LUDLOW
For me, maybe bravery is a big aspect, but I think conscience is probably the heart of what I got from it, which is, you know, if you feel inside you that something's wrong, you should trust your own conscience. And they went to show how challenging that can be and how dangerous that can be. But that ultimately was the right thing to do.

TOM
These three elements, courage, compassion and conscience, are all central to the lasting legacy of the White Rose. They're also key aspects of their leadership, something which Stephani Richards-Wilson thinks is often underexplored.

STEPHANI RICHARDS-WILSON
I see a lot of adjectives for the White Rose and they're certainly deserving of all kinds of accolades and honours. But of course, as we know with the story, they were initially branded as traitors and tried for high treason. Throughout time, they've had different ways of being described, German students, young students, heroes, saints. But I would like to see more verbiage and connections to their leadership traits. My first doctorate is in leadership studies, and maybe that's what drew me to resistance in my first course when I was at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, leadership in the last part of the 20th century, leadership studies has to do about challenging the status quo as influencers, not positional power or formal authority. Here's a group of people who didn't have formal authority, they didn't have a lot of resources, who challenged the status quo.

I would like, going 80 years now, more conversations about their leadership traits. After all, a lot of the world's problems can be solved with people exercising leadership to challenge a status quo. Steadfastness, critical analysis, communication, strategy, shared sacrifice, what wonderful examples they are for leadership and leadership traits. And the fact that we're having this conversation today, you know, 80 years later, tells you that they're even leading from the grave. Their legacy is their leadership traits. So I think connecting them to that field is something we can talk more about in the future. They're really wonderful role models when you talk about leaders, as opposed to followers. And we know a lot of followers in Nazi Germany. There's so much that can be said when you look at their leadership traits.

ALEX
This idea of leading from the grave is part of what we wanted to explore in this podcast series. The ways in which by telling their story in their own words, we could give voice to their legacy. Here's Judd Newborn on what he sees as the importance of the White Rose for us today.

JUDD NEWBORN
The most important thing about the White Rose for today is the need for people to fight against peer pressure, to overcome peer pressure, and to find one another again, as the White Rose had said in one of their leaflets, so that there's some strength in number, so you're not totally isolated, and to speak up, to speak truth to power, to do it publicly. Thomas Mann, the great Nobel laureate had said in a radio broadcast that he sent back to Germany from exile in 1943 after he learned about the White Rose: he said the White Rose knew and publicly declared - calling for freedom, the overturn of the Nazi regime, and so forth. It has universal significance, in specific ways.

The White Rose students were authentic, they were moral, they were courageous. As the White Rose story unfolds with new revelations, which I'm very glad to say I have contributed to, they come in step with the expansion of human rights in the world and in the fight against reactionary culture wars, which would renege on the progress we've made.

The White Rose message couldn't be stronger than it is today.

TOM
For Stephani Richards-Wilson, the relevance of the White Rose is found in what we can learn from them.

STEPHANI RICHARDS-WILSON
They suffered many of the things that we currently suffer. I mean, we have wars and conflict and chaos and corruption and pandemics going on. A lot of horrible things going on in the world. It's cruel, it's cold, and it can be very depressing. Their ability to get past being paralyzed by the overwhelming bad news and the evil in the world is very impressive. And I think we can learn that they had coping mechanisms and one of them was to find like-minded people and kindred spirits who shared their values and priorities and humanity and learning to get past all the bad news, and there's lots of it around the world, and being a doer as opposed to someone who sits on the sidelines. I think that's what we can learn, that this is a human condition.

Evil's been around for a long time, we have it now, and trying to get to know yourself, where you stand, what you want to do about it, as I think that's how they are relevant in today. We still have many of the same challenges, a little bit different as well, but we have to find a way to navigate in that.

I think discernment and discerning is one of the more aspirational traits because we have the same thing, especially when we talk about the internet and social media, the ability to discern and seek the truth, propaganda is out there, misinformation, disinformation, fake news, outright lies. They found some of those same challenges of trying to navigate that and the ability to discern and take a stand.

ALEX
This idea of discernment is also important for George Newton, another of the students who worked on the White Rose Translation Project.

GEORGE NEWTON
I think their legacy is one based on the pursuit of truth and on the pursuit of transparency and being able to distinguish between what is manufactured and what is truthful. And I think their desire to expose the evil regime at the time, I think, is of course a very courageous endeavour, given the circumstances in which they were working. The pursuit of truth and transparency, I think, is important today as well, particularly in certain political climates around the world. And I think that that's an endeavor that should always exist really. Their courage is truly exceptional. And for us to be able to work on a project of such strong-willed, brave individuals was really an honour.

TOM
For student Rachel Herring, who happens to have the same surname as me, the White Rose doesn't have a single legacy.

RACHEL HERRING
I think the White Rose has many legacies. I think there's the legacy it's most well known for, which is this legacy of resistance, of free thinking, of staying true to your principles in a situation and a regime where it was incredibly hard to do that. But I think also other legacies and one which really stood out to me was this idea of collective action. These weren't just individuals who were recording their thoughts, who were distributing pamphlets, this was a group and I think that that legacy of working together and gaining strength from working with other people is a really powerful one.

ALEX
If you enjoyed listening to this podcast series, please follow the example of the White Rose and spread the word by sharing it with your friends. To close out the series, here's Rebecca Donner on why the White Rose matters to us now more than ever.

REBECCA DONNER
I think we have a current urgent need for stories about resistance. The rise of authoritarianism concerns me deeply. And I think that these black and white newsreels that we see about the Third Reich, they seem ancient to contemporary viewers. And I worry about people dismissing them as outdated and irrelevant, as if there were these distant sepia-toned, dust-caked, you know, of an era, of the past. And yet the threat to democracy today is terribly relevant and urgent. And so I think we have much to learn from the members of the White Rose.